Example: I believe that IP is a direct contradiction of nature, sacrificing the advancement of humanity and the world for selfish gain, and therefore is sinful.
Edit: pls do not downvote the comments this is a constructive discussion
Edit2: IP= intellectal property
Edit3: sort by controversal
I thought of a few stupid things, but everyone talking about kids made me think of this one.
I am strongly against Trickle down suffering.
“I put up with this terrible thing when I was your age, and even though we could stop it from happening to anyone, it’s important that we make YOU suffer through it too.”
Hazing, bullying, unfair labor laws, predatory banking and more. It’s really just the “socially acceptable” cycle of abuse.
Trickle down suffering is a great term for it, I’m going to use that for future use.
I agree, and I take it this far: “I worked hard and paid for my house, why should some lazy loafer get housing for free? I paid 24,000$ in tuition, why should kids get free college?” I think that, at some point, one guy has to be the first guy to benefit from progress, and all the people who didn’t benefit just have to suck it up. I would 100% pay a much higher tax rate if it meant that homelessness was gone, hunger was gone, kids got free education… I’m Canadian, so I don’t need to say this about health care. Yeah, I paid an awful lot of mortgage, but if someone else gets a free house? Good!
UBI is coming to Canada sooner rather than later.
Strongly agree. Someone has to break the cycle of abuse, it’s wrong to contribute to the cycle so that it can continue harming others in the future.
Edit, one example that comes to mind is the extremely long shifts in the medical field in America. One guy who was really good at being a doctor happened to be someone who voluntarily took on very long hours. Now there is this persistent mindset that every medical worker must accept long hours and double shifts without notice and without complaints.
There are a few cases where it benefits the patient to avoid handing off the case to another doctor, but generally it just limits the pool of people who are willing to go into the medical field, and limits the career length and lifespan of the people who do go for it.
I sort of disagree. Some pain and suffering is what helps some people become better versions of themselves. Doesn’t work for everyone though, so it shouldn’t be the default experience, but rather a last resort.
Ah yes, the “poverty builds character” argument that’s often used to justify poverty.
Nah mate, it’s the “rich ppl need to experience poverty in order to empathize” argument.
Why should anyone need to experience poverty in the first place?
Because resources are finite and frugality is needed at times.
Global agricultural systems produce 4 million metric tonnes of food each year. If the food were equitably distributed, this would feed an extra one billion people (paper)
Food is clearly not finite, we produce more than we already need, so why does it cost money? Why don’t we give food to people simply because they don’t have enough pieces of paper or coins of silver?
The ancient people of Teotihuacán decided to stop building pyramids and instead built everyone homes, in a sort of luxury social housing, that “In comparison with other ancient Mesoamerican patterns of housing, these structures do look like elite houses.” (Source) This one is especially fascinating and maddening.
It seems that a peoples society can just, you know, make the decision to build and provide a luxury life for everyone, even in the “hard” ancient days of old. Why can’t we provide a good life for everyone? Why are people obsessed with the idea of suffering being a prerequisite to urban society? It would require proof of a large scale, urban society with no evidence of hierarchy being able to collectively build some sort of intricate sewage technology without any top-down management or something… https://www.ucl.ac.uk/news/2023/aug/chinas-oldest-water-pipes-were-communal-effort
Poverty is artificial, it’s a product of using social violence through some abstract currency to protect people from literal violence. Money isn’t the root of all evil, but evil is the root of all money.
Bonus Reading
Nice theorycraft, but it’s just theory. In real life, it doesn’t work.
For one thing, by our own definitions, life is inherently evil. It takes, consumes, destroys, selfishly breaks down something else in order to sustain itself. We may rationalize it in different ways, but it can’t escape that attribute. And as long as an individual has to sustain themselves, they will have no choice but to commit evil. But we selectively view badly those who indulge themselves.
Another is that perfection cannot be achieved, wastage is unavoidable. We have to produce more than is needed or we will end up with less than required.
Accidents, logistics, incompetence, corruption and the like cannot be completely prevented. There will always be something beyond the calculated parameters that can and will eventually overwhelm a system.
And let’s not forget about the desire to control. Whether tyrants or the utopic society you’re implying for, it’s about control, whether to control oneself or all others. But is the mind that easily controlable and should it be? The desires we have and the willpower to pursue or restrain them aren’t that easily defined.
We are not all of the same mind. Neurodiversity proves that people are different in thought and in feeling. The pursuits and responsibilities two different individuals can maintain for themselves over their lifetimes can go below or above the set standard and a civilization must take into account the satisfaction of its citizens in order to avoid its own downfall.
Also, what was achieved in one society will likely not be accepted in another. So good luck expecting everyone, everywhere to accept a unitary system simply because it’s better. I sincerely have my doubts that anyone can succeed in that.
This all has to take into account the planet’s uneven geographical resources distribution as well. Our current production rates barely give a damn about sustainability. Soil nutrition, water consumption, population density, logistics and so on have to be taken into account, so this means population relocation, specialized production specific to regional conditions, limitations of product diversity and availability.
Anyway, what you want can’t be done and if it can be done, it can’t last because people aren’t static pieces of paper. A near-perfect distribution of basic needs requires a level of sacrifice and constant maintenance that we lack the willpower and stare of mind to accept responsibility for at this point in time.
…
Tl;dr:
To make it simple with a one-off example, will you feed fascists or racists if it meant their continued oppression of minorities? And if so, can you ensure everyone else will do the same?
Equal or equitable basic needs indeed need equal or equitable behavior, but we ourselves lack that. And due to that lacking, we make do with what we do have.
What should be doesn’t matter, only what is.
It’s not “theorycraft” I provided scientific citations and evidence of it’s basis in reality. You havent, and everything else you’ve written after this is unsourced theorycraft with no citations or evidence.
I see you’re a right-winger Hobbesean, as that’s what they believe - that human beings are brutish, warlike creatures that require a “better few” to monopolize the violence. Except that has no basis in reality, if that were true then everytime you see a natural disaster like a hurricane or flood and there’s a societal and infrastructure collapse, you’d expect people to be raping and killing eachother en masse. Except that’s not what human beings do, they come together and rebuild. You have a very pessimistic (and outright evil) point of view on human nature, and it’s divorced from reality.
So this is enough reason for you not to try and make things better for people? “It won’t be perfect so we shouldn’t try” what kind of braindead evil philosophy is that? What kind of lethargic devil are you?
What about sharing food for the hungry and making sure people have a high quality standard of life considered “control”? YOU might want control and dominion, most people don’t. And people who want control and dominion should be consciously removed from any sort of power, American Indians understood this notion (if you bothered to read the last link I posted you’d understand that) I provided evidence of societies that functioned without these mechanisms of control you so blindly worship, and you turn around and say “That didn’t happen”? Do you realize how stupid that looks? Not trying to insult you, just pointing out what you look like by saying silly stuff like that.
What? So you’re simultaneously saying that “all minds are different” but that culture should “appeal to everyone”? What a confusing statement. Yes, there are many different minds, and a diverse community makes a strong community. I’m unsure of what you’re trying to argue here.
Who wants that? Who tries to do that except fascist autocratic totalitarianist cultures that fail every time? Again, a diverse community is a strong community, and cultures that welcome and celebrate differences do better than ones that fight against eachothers differences. Again, I’m confused what you’re arguing for, what reality are you thinking of when saying stuff like this?
Tell me you know nothing about agriculture without telling me you know nothing about agriculture. Have you heard of rewildling projects happening all over the world? The dedesertification of Etheopia? Play-farming or lazy-farming? Are companies who drain the watertable and fill up peoples land with waste products to move them out to dig up uranium are considering soil nutrition, water consumption, population density, and logistics? What about trade networks, like moving a product from one place with resources to a place that doesnt have those resources? You realize that’s how trade networks work, right? You also realize that money doesn’t have to change hands for this process to work, right? Look up things like “gift economies” and how they predate money for milennia.
But according to you, people ARE static pieces of paper who are all self-interested, warlike, dominion craving, power hungry fascists. Except they’re also not? Which is it? Why does equal distribution of food and resources “require a level of sacrifice and constant maintenance that we lack the willpower” despite there being countless examples to the contrary, some of which I provided evidence for?
In conclusion you’re cleary not coming from any evidence based perspective, you are of the dogmatic school of thought that capitalist like to preach to justify monopolizing violence. You’re the type of person who wants violence and dominion, who thinks the way things currently are is the best way forward. It’s very catholic, like the old medieval saying “If this is the way things are then this is how God wants them to be.” What you don’t realize is your mentality is not the majority, it’s not “reality”, but it’s the minority, and history is constantly filled with stories of the masses overthrowing people with your mentality and flourishing because of it. Humanity moves forward when we reject these notions your spouting, because they’re religious, dogmatic, and devoid of any evidence in reality. Take your pessimistic fairy tales elsewhere or come back with evidence to support your claims, like I provided evidence for mine. Otherwise I might as well be talking to a religious zealot, you’re no different.
I agree completely, also, that Teotihuacán link was a fascinating read, thank you for that.
I agree with OP, and I think you may as well but are stating it differently. Hardships and difficulty so indeed provide the opportunities to better oneself, but that shouldn’t come from contrived abuse like bullying or hazing. Those are instances of someone using their previous difficulty as an excuse to make it harder for someone else which I don’t believe is morally correct.
Maybe, maybe not. My thought for the comment was “tried to help, didn’t work, off you go and experience as is”.
Because not everyone learns the same way, so we can’t apply a fix-all universal method. Some kids, adults even, don’t get it until they experience it themselves.
What that “it” is changes from person to person and every time we think “why don’t they just understand”, maybe it’s that they can’t understand and need a different way of learning “it”. Which sometimes is painful.
I get you, and I agree with that. What I’m talking about is more specific. I’m not saying remove all suffering. Suffering will always exist. I’m saying if given the option to cause suffering to another or not, “well, it happened to me” is NOT justification for suffering.
Yes, facing adversity does build resilience. However, creating adversity for another just because YOU had to face it is wrong. I had a professor who called our career a “brotherhood of suffering” and would purposely create artificial stumbling blocks and make things more difficult because he had the same done to him. It’s perpetrating a cycle of abuse. I’ve now gotten to the point where I’ve taught in university and in the hospital and I try to break that cycle. It’s still a very difficult path, the content and pace are still taxing. Many still don’t make it to graduation, why make it harder then it needs to be?
Misguided pride or PTSD perhaps?
It’s not pain and suffering that you admire its perseverance. You can have one without the other.
Perseverance against what if not pain?
The fact that this is your reply goes to show you need to learn more.
Sorry, I’m not into S&M play.
Unavoidable pain and suffering, sure. This is about contrived, otherwise unnecessary suffering to “prove a point” or pay it forward in a negative way.