I wonder if this is an US/the rest thing or maybe a meat eater / vegetarian thing. For exact scientific evaluation, please tell in which groups you fit in when commenting.
When the topic food is brought up here or there is always this guy saying “omg you can’t leave your food for 30 minutes on the counter because bacteria you know” (exaggerated) and I don’t get where that sentiment comes from. Many people agree and say you will get food poisoning from that.
First of all, let me tell you I am not an idiot (at least I hope so) and I know how microbiology works - bacteria is everywhere. I don’t doubt your food on the counter will get populated by bacteria, probably more than it would be in the fridge. The question is, is this bad for you?
Now, where I live (central Europe) people are not so fast with that and I wonder why this is. We have a temperate climate which could play a role, so a large portion of the year the temperature is pretty moderate, compared to let’s say south US. But apart from that I don’t really know.
I am a vegetarian, mostly vegan. I am pretty sure it’s not a good idea to leave animal parts out of the fridge, as they are already populated with bad bacteria when you buy them. But for vegetables? Pasta, soup, lasagna? To be honest, I have no shame to leave that stuff on the counter the whole day and even take a spoon from time to time without reheating. Over night I put it of course in the fridge, and in summer when we have 35°C it’s also a different thing. But in general I don’t really care. I know I cannot extrapolate on humanity, only because ai never felt bad after doing this. But honestly, am I an idiot? Or are you just a bit sensitive? Do you assume everybody eats meats?
Really interested in your ideas. Don’t forget to tell the region you are coming from and your diet preferences.
Thank you so much my respected lemmings and pie people
You must log in or register to comment.
I didn’t real the post BC I’m tired but I would like to say some places i worked in NYS had food guidelines for vegetables, meats, etc., and for seafood it just said “GET REAL” in all caps and I always read it in a sarcastic voice in my head lol.
I habituality leave pizza on the counter for breakfast the next morning but that’s about the exception. Everything else I try to refrigerate before going to sleep for the night. I eat mostly veggie.
So as a person who’s been in that back area of a restaurant, we all know the danger zone is anything above 40F to 140F and the closer you are to that median temperature that median temperature the faster that bacteria multiplies, meat, vegetables, doesn’t matter, as long as the temperature’s right and there’s enough moisture there, they’ll breed like bacteria and there are bacteria that leaves toxins behind that will also make you sick.
So given that, I’ve always put stuff into the fridge as soon as were done eating generally following the two hour rule and it’s been sitting out for more than four hours without refrigeration, I’ll usually toss it.
Canadian living in Australia. Omnivore.
Kicker: Food technologist and health inspector. AMA.
Tl;dr: Doesn’t matter if it’s meat or veg. It goes in the fridge. Follow 2h/4h rule. Edit: Should specify certain veg are potentially hazardous as soon as you cut in to them, like leafy greens. All cooked or partially veg that should be treated like meat.
For work, I’m fairly strict in businesses because the food can go anywhere once it’s in the hands on the customer, even in restaurants or at home. You can look at your dine in customers and they all look healthy, but what if they’re not, or where do the leftovers go? Do they take it home after date night to share some with little Bobby or Grandma Jane? In business, you do what you can to keep the food as “clean” as you can.
At home and in food businesses, handwashing is ALWAYS a problem. Food handlers are always touching their faces, phones, hip towel they’ve had on all day, touching a towel they use used to wipe their hands after only rinsing hands in water in the sink, and then touching lettuce for a salad. So even at home, you can cook things to keep bacteria, but is the scoop, container, and your hands clean? Dust, pollen, flies, hairs, etc also carry microbes, and if any of them fall in to food after its been cooked, the bacteria can grow.
It also depends on the type of bacteria, too. Salmonella can infect at an extremely low dose, and Staphylococcus infects at very high doses.
I follow the 2h/4h rule for anything potentially hazardous. Of course, at home, I’m a bit more flexible, usually +/- 1h. If I make myself sick, alright, but there’s no way I’m going to make anyone else sick, so if I’m making food for others, I keep to the strict rules. I’m also generally more risk adverse because the thought of anything involuntary coming out either end makes me sick just thinking about it.
I think the amount of time a food stays out is cultural, and if you grew up with it, your gut will have gotten used to the levels of bacteria. Us westerners generally get sick drinking tap water in certain countries when the locals are fine. I used to live with a Japanese lady for a year, and she knew what I did for a living. She always left rice out all night and ate it the next day. One day, she came to me with it and said “does this smell weird?” and it was a definite yes from me. I’d never leave cooked rice out that long and feel comfortable eating it.
So yeah, Bacillus cereus or whatever bacteria present may not occur all the time, but it does happen. Imagine making large batches and serving to large numbers of unrelated people.
Another thing: Cool foods within 2h to a reasonable temperature (I say 40C is fine) before putting it in the the fridge uncovered. If you put hot food in the fridge, you run the risk of warming up the foods already in the fridge.
Wash your hands.
And use a thermometer. Make sure it’s clean before you use it.
Thanks for listening to my Ted Talk.
What is this 2h/4h rule of which you speak?
I have a thermometer with a metal probe. What’s your view on how to correctly clean it?
At home, I just use soap, water and a scrubber. As an additional step, I also either wipe it down with an alcohol wipe if I have any laying around, or let it sit in freshly boiled water. I’m not crazy about doing this for everything except with undercooked or raw poultry.
At work, everyone is required by law to implement a sanitising step to ensure any residual harmful microbes are destroyed… but I’d never deter anyone at home from doing this ;) I suggest properly diluted bleach (100ppm, or as per label instructions, freshly made), or quaternary ammonium compound (“quat”, also diluted to either 200ppm or as per label). Otherwise, dishwasher.
I’ve always wondered why eggs can be unrefrigerated in some countries and be safe to eat for weeks…
This has to do with how the eggs are sanitized before they’re sold. In places where you need to keep them refrigerated, they’ve been washed in such a way that a protective layer has been removed. In countries that keep their eggs on the counter, this has not been done.
Yeah, that’s huge. Outbreaks are becoming more and more common. In Canada and USA, it’s a requirement to keep eggs in the fridge, and we just assume chickens = Salmonella, which is also why there is such stress on washing your hands thoroughly after handling raw chicken, cut chicken on a designated poultry-only cutting board, etc.
I think some countries will do a sanitising wash, some just wash with water.
In Australia, Salmonella infections have been increasing, so it’s strongly recommended to keep eggs refrigerated. It’s not written in to law, but we’re a little behind here on a few things. Also consider the differences in handling of eggs at a supermarket, at a farmer’s market, or someone selling excess eggs outside their home.
Another thing that needs to be considered: Egg shells are porous. In a supermarket, temperatures don’t fluctuate as much as it would at home or in a restaurant, so they’re not going to sweat (moisture = nice spot for bacteria to grow). In restaurants and at home, if they’re not in the fridge, eggs will be subject to sweating (think hot kitchen during the day, cool kitchen at night; flies, cockroaches, rodents, unclean human hands, etc.) I’ve seen eggs being sold out of eskies on the side of the road, and I avoid those. The Aussie sun is HOT.
One big reason for the US guidelines being so strict is that they apply to the entire country, which ranges from Florida to Alaska and everywhere in between, and they are worst case. Plus with a massive population fed by capitalist companies that value money over lives and frequently altered food for profit, deaths in a large population are going to happen.
I don’t leave stuff that needs refridgeration out for more than a few hours so that it holds up for several days and the time varies widely by food type. Food does need to cool down significantly before refridgerating, although sometimes I will put it in within a couple hours to avoid forgetting. For most foods I have a four hour limit outside the fridge.
Commercially raised chicken has a very high chance of having salmonella. Raw chicken is only out long enough to prepare and cook. Once cooked I don’t worry anymore than anything else.
I also use the dates as rough estimates and when to pay more attention to spoilage. I don’t worry about safety for canned foods that don’t have signs of spoilage, but a soup can a couple years past the best by date has likely probably separated and textures will be off. Dates on bags of chips are a sign they are will be going stale within a few months.
The ignorance in here of how food can go bad is impressive. Refrigerate within one hour. You don’t need to let it cool down before putting it into the refrigerator.
https://www.cdc.gov/food-safety/prevention/index.html
Bacteria can multiply rapidly if left at room temperature or in the “Danger Zone” between 40°F and 140°F. Never leave perishable food out for more than 2 hours (or 1 hour if exposed to temperatures above 90°F).
Refrigerate perishable food (meat, seafood, dairy, cut fruit, some vegetables, and cooked leftovers) within 2 hours. If the food is exposed to temperatures above 90°F, like a hot car or picnic, refrigerate it within 1 hour.
Package warm or hot food into several clean, shallow containers and then refrigerate. It is okay to put small portions of hot food in the refrigerator since they will chill faster.
Here’s the thing, restaurant level food safety is there to prevent 1 in a million chances of something happening, and usually would only effect those with weak immune systems. It’s a huge overabundance of caution born out of a desire to avoid lawsuits, and if you are serving to the public, you should 100% follow it.
But at home? Personally, I think 1 in a million is overly cautious. I’m fine with 1 in 10,000 and trust my immune system to handle it. I am too poor to throw away perfectly good food because I got lazy after dinner and waited 3 hours to put it away instead of 2. I survived all of college off of pizza that was left at room temperature. And yea, you can cite that one case of the guy who got botulism or something after eating a 3-4 day old pizza, but I want you to think about the millions upon millions of pizzas people eat every day without following restaurant-level food safety and realize how crazy it is to base your entire personal food safety philosophy around avoiding extreme edge cases.
Eat day old pizza, thaw your chicken in the sink, store your food in large containers if it makes more sense than small ones. I promise, you will be fine. You are far more at risk driving to the grocery store to get your ingredients than you are from eating food that’s been at room temperature for a few hours.
That’s not guidance for restaurants. Anecdotal evidence isn’t fact.
All Q-tip packages say to not put them in your ears because they can cause damage. Hundreds of millions of people around the world use them to clean their ears. But apparently all these millions of people are suffering from hearing damage because “anEcDoTaL EviDEnCe iSN’t FacT”.
Anecdotal evidence is evidence though. And I think the point of the above post is valid, commercial food service should be held to the strictest guidelines to eliminate as much risk as possible. At home, for myself, I’m not going to worry about it beyond basic common sense and trusting my own senses. I also think it is good to be aware of guidelines and generally exercise caution.
All that said, I am always forgetting to put food away and eat it for lunch the next day anyway - have never had a problem in decades (vegetarian).
I honestly don’t see how some of these people manage to get out of bed in the morning. Did you know falling out of bed imparts more kinetic energy to your body than getting shot with a .45ACP?! Best just stay in bed.
Speaking of, people worry about getting shot in the US. Unless you’re in a gang or otherwise run with violent people, your odds of dying to a bullet are minuscule compared to dying in a car wreck. Guess which event is deemed probable.
Our risk/reward calculations have gone fucking nuts over the past couple of decades. I’ve had people call me an idiot online, and insinuated IRL, because I skinny dip in the local creek. No one has ever articulated the risk(s). I’m simply an idiot for taking the, uh, risk?
I knew this thread would bring out people quoting the over engineered specs for restaurant safety. You probably have the best take in this thread.
Thanks for your US input, really appreciate it. But think about it, most of the people that already commented live outside the US. It seems your guidelines are pretty heavy, also another US american commented the guidelines are so strict because they need to apply to the whole vast country.
Are we all really ignorant, or is it possible there is also a cultural difference in play?
Bacteria doesn’t care about culture. The guidelines are pretty simple: bacteria generally grows on food within a temp range.
It’s not like parts of US has more food-affecting bacteria than others.
Other nonsense in this thread: “if it smells ok it’s ok to eat” some bacteria can’t be detected by scent.
Rice, a common food outside of the US, has a particularly bad bacteria that can survive being cooked and should not be left out or even reheated more than once for example.
Well, bacteria actually care a lot about culture if you allow for this pun.
Like I said, the other commenters from the US say the US guidelines are extra strict so infection will be nearly impossible. This post is a pretty small sample, but from what I gather there is indeed a cultural difference. Not in the biology itself, but in what guidelines exist and how they are interpreted. We are of course talking about a private setting at home in this thread, not about restaurants or industrial kitchens.
Honestly, I feel your tone is a bit rude. Make your points, share tour thoughts, argue. But don’t act like everybody commenting here is stupid.
Find any sources from your country then?
My Filipino wife leaves rice in the cooker overnight almost every day, reheats it the next. Please explain to her that she died several decades ago from this practice.
Anecdotal. Do your own research if you need too.
there are about 63,400 cases of food poisoning from Bacillus cereus every year in the US
Yes, anecdotal, but several decades of this practice, not only with her but among nearly everyone else in her culture does say something.
I’ll go tell her she’s dead.
(When I read her stuff like this off lemmy: “Who are these people? What is wrong with them?” She thinks I know you like it’s FaceBook.)
if they ever had a 24hr “flu” or something similar it was likely food poisoning.
You’re free to treat food safety the same way anti-vaxxers treat vaccines.
No one’s saying she’s dead. Rice is just a high risk food to leave at room temperature. It’s possible she could continue doing this her whole life and never get sick, but it doesn’t change the general risk level.
I won’t tell you what to do, but here’s an article on it by researchers in Malaysia: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0882401023004515
The WHO’s manual on food safety here.
I’ve been out of the loop on this for a while, however— yes, food safety practices differ culturally, but actual regulations are fairly similar. The WTO has recommendations upon which standards for imported food are created, resulting in a lot of uniformity in international food safety guidelines. But! There can be equitablility and equivalence allowances for different practices that achieve the same result. FDA conducts inspections on foreign food manufacturing that allow for these differences.
More countries have implemented HACCP in food industries based on WHO guidelines.
Local differences can still result in products considered safe in one region and not suitable for commercial sale in another. For instance in Canada all commercial eggs have to be refrigerated, in part, because we wash our eggs, which removes the protective cuticle so they’re more prone to becoming contaminated. In other countries it’s against regulation to wash commercial eggs and they can be stored at room temperature. But! It’s a food safety risk to leave a refrigerated egg at room temperature for too long because condensation forms on the shell, creating a favorable environment for bacteria.
Some countries don’t allow certain preservatives, additives or chemicals. Borax and lye are used in traditional recipes and legal in some countries, while being against regulations in others.
However, heavy regulations aren’t just based on risk to the weakest consumer, but on variance in circumstance. Not everyone who handles food is a perfect professional, equipment breaks down, cold trucks can overheat, and plenty of other shit can go wrong in the supply chain. Your food might already be heavily contaminated by the time it reaches you and that can’t always be seen or smelled.
Adhering as well as you can to your local food prep guidelines can be overkill 99/100 times, but that 1/100 can prevent slight discomfort/illness/death. It’s about how much risk you want to take on.
You don’t need to let it cool down before putting it into the refrigerator.
It really depends on how hot it is, how much there is, and how big the fridge is. Basically just try not to put so much energy in the fridge that other things start to heat up as well; then everything in your fridge is in the ‘danger zone’, or at least uncomfortably close to it. Also saves energy.
Personally I always leave things out to cool off and only put it away quicker if there’s meat in it.
You can use a temp probe into food to prove that waiting isn’t needed.
Naw, they’re right. Cooling food before cold storage is a food safety standard where I live.
I’m a former chef. We tracked our cold storage temps twice a day and had digital displays on some, they absolutely heat up when a lot of energy is introduced relative to the temperature/volume/efficiency of the unit. We cooled everything before putting away, but we had methods and tools for cooling things down quickly if it was going to take more than 30min—1hr.
This is because hot food not only heats up the whole fridge/freezer, it can warm/thaw food next to it, and it raises the humidity in the fridge. While temperatures may not reach the danger zone, more warmth=bacteria replicate faster. Mold still grows in a fridge, so if it’s even a little bit more warm and moist, food’s going to go bad a little faster.
IDGAF. My wife leaves dinner wrapped up on the table or on the stove overnight all the time. Only thing I put away immediately is seafood.
According to all that, we should be dead, several dozen times a year. Do explain. Perhaps our ignorance is lining our stomachs?
At this point you should do your own research, nothing I say will change your mind.
My siblings and I are the same way. We’ve all got iron stomachs. When we share leftovers with friends, they get upset stomachs, but we’re never careful with food being left out too long, and we never have bowel issues with it.
Probably have some sort of ungodly tolerance built up for it, parents were poor while raising us and we ate whatever was available.
US. Omnivore.
The food safety recommendations and regulations for commercial Kitchens are there for a reason. That being said, a home setting is very different than a commercial setting.
-
The potential for impact is much greater in a commercial environment due to the volume of food and customers served.
-
Believe it or not, a home setting is more controlled than a commercial setting: There are (generally) fewer food handlers, service personnel and “customers” touching or breathing on the food/dishes/equipment. And whether any of those individuals pose a disease vector risk is fairly well understood within the household, which can be mitigated on a more granular level. Because you are only serving one table instead of many at different stages of readiness, there is smaller variety of foods in preparation at once, fewer steps in the prep process happening simultaneously, and dirty dishes are only handled after the food has been prepared and eaten, reducing the risk of cross contamination. There are so many vectors for contamination in a commercial setting that the controls are in place to stop little issues from turning in big problems.
All this is to say that I am generally okay leaving finished foods out on my counter for extended periods of time if it has been freshly and properly prepared, or I plan on finishing or pitching it that day.
However, your examples baffle me. Leaving pasta out all day just seams like an unpleasant eating experience, indifferent of the health implications. Soup and lasagna? I can’t imagine wanting either of those early enough in the morning to prepare them so that I could leave them out “all day”. If I’m grabbing leftovers from the fridge, I wouldn’t leave it out. It’s already got a container and a space on the shelf; I just put the rest back where it came from after I take my serving. Sitting on the counter isn’t going to improve it.
Vegetables of course live their entire pre-picked lives without refrigeration and are generally fine on the counter when fresh. I would refrigerate prepared fresh vegetables if I knew I wasn’t going to finish them or they were particularly moist, like cut tomatoes or a dressed salad, or known to turn quickly like avacado.
-
We lean towards vegetarian, minimum meat consumption for both health and environmental reasons.
As far as leaving food out…only foods that don’t require refrigeration. Bread, snacks, etc. Anything cooked that is still hot will be allowed to cool before going into the fridge, no need to make the fridge work harder, but it doesn’t stay out long enough to be a food safety problem.
Uncooked foods that are dangers to bacteria growth like meats and the like don’t sit out ever or are carefully thawed. Eggs? They’re fine out of the fridge, just crack them individually into a small bowl to make sure they’re good before use. I think I’ve only ever had one bad egg left out and it was pretty obvious, they just last a lot longer if refrigerated. Greens and other veg just wilt and dehydrate if not used quickly unless refrigerated, but leaving them out isn’t an issue. They get washed before use.
Anyway…I do most all the cooking and take food safety seriously. I’ve had one serious bout of food poisoning from a restaurant and that made death seem like a viable option vs the misery of constantly evacuating everything in your body for a few days, and the memory stuck with me. You can cook great food that’s been prepared to the correct and safe temperature, and I have little issue with foods that have been cooked like this, left out to cool and refrigerated, then reheated to a proper temperature.
Also… thinking rice or pastas are fine left out because no animal proteins, think again.
I leave food on the counter all the time, because If I’m still hungry in a little while, I don’t want my food cold. I have never in my life gotten food poisoning from it.
US omnivore.
Most fruit stays on the counter in the fruit bowl (except berries, I want more than a day to eat them), bread, and all unprocessed veg (besides lettuce, again I find it goes bad fast) stays out.
Anything that I have prepared and cooked goes in the fridge when we are done eating it or when it’s approaching room temperature. Sometimes a little warmer if I’m impatient. If we had a pot luck / carry in food sometimes sets out a couple hours NBD, still fridge after.
Red meat gets salted or seasoned and sits out to approx room temp before cooking if I think about it. I don’t do that from frozen (I use sous vide for that defrost), with very large cuts (rib roast for example) or with chicken because I have never noticed it cook unevenly.
The only food that ever really sits out on the counter after preparation is rice or baked goodies (banana bread, cookies, etc.). Anything that sits out overnight is now trash except pizza if it was a late night snack. Anything out is quite rare anyway since we usually clean the kitchen before bed.
Edit: Eggs of course in the fridge, they are washed. Butter also fridge, I know it can stay out but I usually like it harder, we aren’t spreading it that often compared to measuring.
General rule: If the store I bought it from was refrigerating it, so am I.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Micromort?wprov=sfla1
I’m unable to find micromort numbers for food-poisoning or food preservation techniques, but my wild guess is that leaving an average vegetarian leftover overnight at an average kitchen temperature on the averagely cleaned kitchen counter, unrefrigerated and even not covered at all, then eating it the next day (maybe reheated) is gonna be negligible amounts of risk compared to many many many other risks people take everyday without blinking their eye about it (such as walking, driving, climbing stairs, swimming, drinking alcohol, using cleaning products, inhaling/eating environmental pollution, not washing hands after toilet, …)
From the CDC website:
“Bacteria can multiply rapidly if left at room temperature or in the “Danger Zone” between 40°F and 140°F. Never leave perishable food out for more than 2 hours (or 1 hour if exposed to temperatures above 90°F).”
Well the US guidelines don’t add very much to the discussion tbh, especially meat vs. veggies. It shows however why US Americans are so sensitive about this topic.
Also they tried to basically shut down the CDC last weekend with mass firings they had to walk back
I keep my lunch in my work bag all day, not in the fridge, unless it’s salad where it should be crisp.
I did the European thing where I kept eggs on the counter. It’s best that way. Real unwashed farm eggs, not shit from the grocery store.
Omnivore, southeast USA.
When I worked in food service, I was taught that it takes four hours at room temperature for bacteria to reach dangerous levels in food, so that’s what I go with. I assume there’s other factors at play, but four hours is easy to remember and apply and I don’t like to take chances with that stuff.
But I guess it makes a really big difference if it is chicken or carrots, right?
I believe that guideline is only for perishable food like cooked foods, meat, etc. For shelf-stable things like bread and most fruits/veggies, it’s basically “do they look OK?”
I think they’re referring to cooked food. In that case it’s about the same, cooked carrots left at room temperature will grow bacteria/fungi about the same as cooked chicken.
Salt/acid/moisture content are factors, too. Like a piece of cooked, brined chicken in an acidic sauce can be safer than just a bowl of cooked, mushy carrots.
Ants are everywhere in south east asia so I’d never or build a little tower with a water bowl underneath it.
Omnivore/Central Europe:
I am pretty special in my needs because i hate eating leftovers when they were out “too long” (where “too long” is a very random amount of time), so i normally wait until the food is room temperature; if i don’t plan to eat within the next few hours it goes into the fridge pretty much instantly. But i know that this is my personal spleen and that it would be fine much longer.
Bread, any fruit, onions, potatoes, garlic and so on stay outside tho.
It’s more important to make sure that your kitchen and cooking utensils are clean, and anything that was used for preparing meat doesn’t get reused; and the dishes must be heated properly - that alone would mean it’s probably save to stay out overnight if it’s not 30°C in the kitchen in the midst of summer.
