Think about like the worse of the worst. Dictators, war criminals, etc…
Especially those who never got punished in their past life when the crimes were conmitted.
The most common theories of reincarnation hold that it is punishment for misdeeds in past lives.
I’m sorry.
No wonder things are so bad, we’re in a world filled with the worst souls that just keep coming back again and again.
Yeah Buddhism would be solved if there was just death. That’s also why Buddhism minus cosmology ie “secular” Buddhism makes zero sense
It doesn’t make sense logically but still nice in a “be nice to other people, reduce suffering” sense.
It can reduce suffering yes, but it removes all of the culture, philosophy, and traditional goals of a 2500 year tradition so some random “spiritual” person in America can be less stressed at their desk job. It’s a net positive but there is a lot more benefits to be had behind being mindful!
I just think it’s a shame. Like what the west did to yoga.
I was sort of involved a yoga cult for a while. I did basically a vedanta boot camp, twice, and while there were good things they did at the organization, the base model was authoritarian and manipulative.
I’m sure that there are plenty of people who find a lot of positive aspects of religion. But there are definitely people who use it to abuse their power over others, in any religion. That is why I don’t choose to believe in anything supernatural.
That’s why I’m trying to forge a path of respecting where Buddhism and Yoga come from, while not believing in the supernatural aspects. I don’t think it removes the culture, it just rejects the supernatural part. Which I get is anathema to a lot of people practicing those religions, since they give you meaning.
And with yoga, it rejects the caste-division part as well. We had a lesson about how society was divinely ordered into different roles, and we shouldn’t judge it by today’s standards. That sounds like priestly apologia to me. There were literally stories in the mythos about lower-caste peoples devoting themselves to learning and the gods, and then the gods ordering them to cut off their own hands, for stepping out of line. No thanks.
We learned a lot about karma and divine grace, but it is not really part of the universe. And it is definitely used by the powerful to enrich themselves.
Like I said I don’t think there is anything wrong with people who do believe finding meaning in their religion and not harming others. I think that’s great. But I do not think I would be ashamed for not believing in it.
I have a memory of somebody asking the Dalai Lama what he thought of people bringing meditation and mindfulness to the West without bringing the Buddhist cosmology, and he was in favor of it – meditation helps everyone.
//temporary reply to two points in your comment. May edit and add more later, can’t save a draft of a comment!
I’m sure that there are plenty of people who find a lot of positive aspects of religion. But there are definitely people who use it to abuse their power over others, in any religion. That is why I don’t choose to believe in anything supernatural.
The same could be said about anything. I cannot understand generalize a category as large as religion as abusive. Joining a cult once doesn’t mean all religions are bad. Also, religion doesn’t equal supernatural and that very much depends on how you define supernatural.
That’s why I’m trying to forge a path of respecting where Buddhism and Yoga come from, while not believing in the supernatural aspects. I don’t think it removes the culture, it just rejects the supernatural part.
Buddhism is nothing without a belief in reincarnation. Buddha sought to solve the problem of death, old age, and sickness. You can’t do that if you don’t believe in his solution.
Kind of feels like being Christian but not believing in God.
Gotcha – hopefully this clarification helps:
The way I understood Buddhism was that samsara involved reincarnation. I apologize if I’m mistaken. I really didn’t know much about Buddhism. My branch of yoga borrowed very heavily from Buddhism but was its own thing (advaita)
I am generalizing that religion can lead to abuse. You’re right that other things can as well.
To me supernatural means anything metaphysical, anything that cannot be disproven by observations in the physical world.
At my yoga place, they had a Hindu priest who did fire puja from time to time. This has a social function, but the idea that it appeases actual gods that will help us is supernatural thinking, in my opinion.
We mentally or physically chanted mantra. These are supposed to protect the mind, etc… I’m sure there is a real component to this. But the idea that a word invokes a literal god that will help you is supernatural in my opinion.
There were indeed Christians who believed in Jesus’s teachings but not in the supernatural aspects. Stuff like love your neighbor, love your enemy as yourself, forgive people, help people, we are all human beings. They were called Gnostics and they were persecuted by authorities. (EDIT: I might be wrong about the name, but I have heard that they existed).
Prison 2.0, even death won’t set you free. Thanks for a new horrible concept OP
I run a prison planet community here on lemmy so I know the concept and earth being a prison comes up in many ancient relgiions. The gnostic Christians believe earth was made to be a prison by malevolent entities. There’s a belief in niche internet circles that earth is actually hell because hell is not described as a lake of fire or anything like that, it is simply a world without god and we are simply repeating our lives and deja vu is just us remembering previous times we’ve lived. If nothing else, it’s a interesting thought experiment.
No. If reincarnation is real it means there is a system determining how and where people are reincarnated, likely with some purpose. Unless it’s all random. The OP doesn’t state which version of reincarnation, some version have a reward/punishment mechanism built-in.
No. Reincarnation would be much more effective if everyone was allowed to remeber who they were in a previous life so they know how they treated people so hopefully reincarnation would show progress in these souls. Not the way it works though and makes you think that earth could actually be a prison like the gnostics say.
Depends on if there’s any continuity of self or not. If it’s like it is now and there is no explicite continuity barring some major wonky situations (ala Last Airbender) then no. They get a fresh slate same as everyone else.
Like say. I find out in a prior life I was Pol Pot. Current me is going to feel REALLY shitty and ‘OK maybe the shit I’m in with my life is to try balancing out the shit I did then.’
Now if there IS a continuity of self/resurgance of the old personality? Treat that person AS the old person.
No, unless we can remember what we did in past lives and those criminals are still doing the same thing in a current life
No. If the versions of reincarnation where your placement in your incarnation is the result of your past deeds (or trying to release the sense of guilt over those deeds), the incarnation itself is doing the work. Making things worse for the person might clear up their “karma” faster (using that term advisedly) so the vengeance aspect isn’t satisfied by making things worse for them.
I don’t think vengeance (“punishment”) is justice anyway. I think it’s important that we let state level actors know what terrible pieces of shit they are in this life. This gives them the opportunity to make some recompense in a way that might actually help the victims. Not that making George W. Bush spend the rest of his life feeding orphans in Iraq could possibly make up for what he’s done (note: every U.S. president who has served during my lifetime has been a war criminal; I just don’t feel like getting into an unrelated argument).
Ensuring justice (reputational and restorative) in this lifetime also discourages shitty behavior from others.
As someone who doesn’t believe in free will I’d say no - I don’t think they should be punished for their acts even in this life. Now, I’m not saying that actions shouldn’t have consequences but punishing a person for something they did implies they could have done otherwise and that I disagree with.
